“People do stupid things because they believe in their stories so much”

Why do you find human behaviour so interesting?

I have always been interested in the question of what sort of creatures we are. I’ve pinned that down pretty well by now, I think. In artificial sociality, the question is why people do what they do, including stupid things. It is also a nod to artificial intelligence, a development that many people are unnecessarily afraid of. We’ll be alright!

Do you now hold the wisdom after all those years of research?

I wouldn’t say that. I have a pretty good grasp of what drives us, how we constantly correct one another, how group processes can proceed as a result and how this depends on culture, but I can’t see the future. What I can do is observe humans, just like David Attenborough, and spot the big picture issues. That does not automatically make me a good person, though. I also do stupid things.

What will the world look like by the year 3000?

Pessimists say that we won’t be around anymore, but I don’t believe that. We will definitely have experienced pandemics, wars and climate disasters, but humans will certainly still be around in 3000. Even if there are perhaps fewer of us than now. When I think about the future, I think about my grandchildren. But by the year 3000, forty generations will have passed.

Why do people do stupid things, like you say?

That happens because we are primarily group animals. You speak a language, practise a religion, wear certain clothes, sing songs and go to events because the group you belong to, or want to belong to, does so. You want to be worthy of status in the group. This behaviour does not necessarily make you wise. The fact that we are ruining the climate is a matter of collective stupidity: nobody wants to do it, yet we all still do. We mimic each other worldwide.

What can you do about this as a scientist?

As a scientist, you systematically look at human behaviour and try to model sociality. You can then run scenarios in these models using agents to map out the consequences of human behaviour, for example in socioecological systems. The models are often much less precise than modern weather models. They give reasonably accurate odds, but they cannot predict anything. There are too many uncertain factors and events that are as yet unknown for that. But: even a relatively poor model can still be useful for policymakers.

How predictable was your career?

I’ve done a bit of everything, but culture and human behaviour has been a thread throughout my career. As a teenager, I grew up in Switzerland, where I experienced for myself what it’s like to be an outsider. I wanted to do something with that experience in my academic career. It is a calling to want to know things.

Has your career gone the way you wanted it to?

In 2005, some colleagues and I were chatting about what we still wanted to do. Nobody thought that I would still take another career step. I then sprung into action and, after working hard, I was granted professor status myself in 2018. That was a good time for it, by the way, because I first had to grow up. For a long time, I was just a boy doing whatever. I’ve been lucky: everything I've done has come together well.

Do you look back on your time at university positively?

I started studying at Wageningen University in 1976, and have enjoyed working here since 1985. When I had figured something out, usually by writing a book about it, I came up with something else. For that reason, it doesn’t feel like I’ve been doing the same things the whole time. The university has grown enormously over the years, but the culture has remained the same. It is an engaged organisation that doesn't proclaim its greatness but instead commits itself to working on world problems. The unchanged atmosphere and dear colleagues will certainly stay in my memory.

What will you do now?

I’ve been receiving my state pension since September, but I’ve still been working at Urban Economics for one day a week. So, I don’t feel like I’m retired. Until recently, I was mainly busy working with PhD candidates, doing a theatre production and caring for my mother. She recently died and as sad as that is, it also offers space. I have seven grandchildren, who I adore. I want to visit Denmark with my wife and I also want to cycle along the Rhine, Europe’s artery, to reach Switzerland. Once there, I want to get in touch with people from my past.

What can we expect of you?

To start off with, an entertaining valedictory address on 21 March, with pictures and music. I want to allow the public to see and feel who we are, and who we can become, as homo sapiens. I also want to write a Dutch book on the nature of the beast, because I’ve still not finished thinking about it. It needs to be a light book that my grandchildren can read too, with references in the back for the fussy ones.

Do you have any tips for scientists?

Do not see your field as a walled garden, but as a starting point. It is good to have your own discipline, but go on a journey of discovery too. Look across the borders of your own field and see other scientists as friends and fellow travellers. Together, you’ll discover more.